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Interviews | Justice JS Verma, former Chief Justice of India interviewed by Aman Sharma

Justice JS Verma, former Chief Justice of India interviewed by Aman Sharma

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published Published on Jan 28, 2013   modified Modified on Jan 28, 2013
-The Economic Times

Justice JS Verma says women remain unsafe because of poor governance, not dearth of laws, in an interview with ET. The former Chief Justice of India, who headed the three-member committee to suggest measures for a safer environment for women, had submitted his panel's report in just 29 days, and wants the government to act in the same time:

* Do you expect the govt to implement your recommendations promptly?

The public mood is such that if they do not do it quickly, it (the delay) will be at their own peril. I have written to the prime minister, on January 23, with the report, asking him to speedily implement the recommendations to retain public confidence in good governance.

* What has been government's response?

I was contacted by finance minister P Chidambaram on December 23 evening to prepare this report. I understand that this was at the behest of the prime minister. I have sent the report now to the PM. There is no response so far. The only response should be to implement the report, I guess.

* Do you expect the government to table the report in the Budget session?

The day I was told to start work, there were two months for the Parliament session. I completed my job in 29 days. If three persons could do this work in 29 days, then the government can certainly do its work in as much time, with all its might and workforce at its disposal. If it still cannot do it, then that would be unfortunate.

* Some in the government say that Justice Verma is impatient, and government needs time to act...

If the government takes time, they should make way for persons who are quicker. If at 80 years, I am so impatient, they should understand the impatience of the youth. What is the government there for? It is the duty of the government to serve the people and the youth. Anyone who hints that he cannot do that should vacate his seat and leave it for someone else to do it.

Can't the government react promptly, given the extent to which the law and order has deteriorated in respect of safety of women? Certainly, I am impatient, so that this lack of governance should be converted into good governance.

* What was the attitude of the home ministry while you were working on your report?

We never spoke to home minister Sushil Kumar Shinde... I enquired if the PM was ready to accept the report in person. I was told that a junior person would be available. So I said that whosoever wants to accept the report may come to Vigyan Bhavan and take it.

The home ministry sent a joint secretary; so I said, I will not personally hand over the report and asked a counsel appointed by the committee to hand over the report to the joint secretary.

* Did you exceed your brief by asking for the revocation the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and for doing away with need for sanction in sexual abuse cases in conflict zones?

There should be no need for any prior sanction to prosecute Army personnel or paramilitary personnel when an accusation is of a sexual offence as sanction of a superior is required only if the crime is done in the discharge of official duty.

In which officer's official duty does rape or sexual assault come? When I headed NHRC, I received many complaints of such offences and there are even more now. Also, AFSPA must be reviewed. There is a provision in the Act for periodic review. This has not been done for several years.

* How do you view law minister Ashwani Kumar's statement that it is not proper to bar politicians from contesting elections at the stage of a court taking cognisance of a crime, as your report has recommended?

Why insist that people with criminal charges should be allowed to fight elections because they are to be convicted? When a court has taken cognizance, after it has applied its mind, and comes to the conclusion that there is a prima facie case against an accused, then between individual interest and public interest, which should prevail? Definitely, the latter! Is it desirable that a person with a criminal background should be a candidate?

In a country of over a billion people, is there a dearth of clean persons who can become our leaders? Certainly not. If criminals come into the legislature, will you want such people to make your laws? If such MPs and MLAs are there in our present legislatures against whom courts have taken cognisance of a crime, then they should resign to uphold the Constitution. The respect for them will go up in the eyes of the public in that scenario.

* Chief Justice Altamas Kabir has said that he wished he could have taken part in the public protests after the gang-rape incident. Do you share his sentiments?

The CJI's statement shows how pained he must have been after the gang-rape incident. I too was very pained. There are many ways to contribute to a protest - my way was to complete this report in 29 days flat and give a report to the government.

* When Delhi Police Commissioner Neeraj Kumar was asked why lathicharge was resorted to, he said it was a graded response after the protestors had refused to budge for the whole day...

This is absolutely wrong. The lathicharge done on the protestors will always be an indelible scar on our democracy. The protestors were completely peaceful. The young people did not react to any provocation, they were showing more maturity. The police said they only opened water cannons but in that cold, you direct that water on the police and then say if it is right or not.

The police commissioner also said that he was not a quitter but a fighter, when he was asked whether he felt that he should take moral responsibility and quit....

If a person doesn't admit his mistake and rather smiles on the same, should one say more? You have seen pictures of the press conference where both the home secretary and the police commissioner are smiling. I have said that the home secretary and the commissioner did a press conference and rather than solemnly apologise for what happened, they were smiling.

* Home Secretary RK Singh patted the commissioner's back for getting the accused arrested within a few days. Don't you think the police deserved praise?

First, you let a horrific crime happen and then you pat your back saying you have made arrests...if you have arrested the accused, what is the big feat you have achieved. That was your duty anyway. Your fault was that you allowed this brutal crime to take place. Delhi is perhaps the unsafest city for women...this whole country is unsafe for women.

* Why did you desist from proposing death sentence for the crime of rape?

Globally, there is talk of abolition of the death sentence for crimes for which there is provision for capital punishment. Over 150 states in the world have abolished death penalty.

Women's organisations in India, who are the biggest stakeholder, was against awarding death penalty for rape. We took note of the argument that introduction of death penalty may not have a deterrent effect and, in fact, could be a regressive step.

The women's groups also advocated against chemical castration. We had to give due importance to these suggestions. So we recommended imprisonment for the whole of remaining life, as the maximum punishment for aggravated cases of rape. In cases where rape also leads to murder, there is already the provision for capital punishment.

* Why did you propose stiff sentences for other sexual offences such as eve-teasing, groping and stalking?

Usually, the first sexual crime committed by a person is not rape. He starts off by eveteasing on the street, then inappropriately touching or groping a woman and when his misplaced courage increases, he commits rape.

If we stop the accused at the first instance of eve-teasing or stalking with a stiff sentence, we can bring down the incidence of rape. Right now, offences of sexual nature have minor sentences. We have hence recommended appointment of special magistrates who can speedily issue tough sentences to such sexual offenders.

* ET has reported how India Inc is worried over changes recommended to Sexual Harassment At Workplaces Bill, especially since you have suggested external tribunals to probe such cases. You also want women to be only reprimanded if they file a false case. Are these practical?

The landmark judgment of the Supreme Court in 1997, in the Vishakha case, which first gave guidelines to prevent sexual harassment at workplaces, was delivered by me. I had then suggested internal committees but over time, we've realised that the internal committees are not that effective. What problem do companies have with independent external tribunals headed by ex-judges?

It was our apprehension that inhouse dealing of all grievances would dissuade women from filing complaints and promote a culture of suppression of legitimate complaints in order to avoid the establishment concerned falling into disrepute.

Also, a majority of complaints by women regarding sexual harassment are true. The provision in the government's bill to punish a woman whose complaint is found false is a red-rag provision introduced with very little thought.

* Do you think the Delhi Police should report to the chief minister rather than MHA?

I had noted the statement made by chief minister Sheila Dikshit, where she said she was helpless as the police did not report to her. She said she should not be blamed as she did have any power over the police. I have hence said that accountability should be fixed and the ambiguity should end. We have, however, taken no clear stand on who the police should report to.

* Are you not satisfied with the steps taken by the police since the gang-rape case - getting more PCR vans, increasing patrolling, impounding buses running without required permits and the crackdown on tinted glasses?

Shouldn't they have done this earlier? In 1997, as Chief Justice of India, I had issued orders to the chief secretary, transport secretary and the police commissioner, when a school bus crashed in to the Yamuna, at Wazirabad. Had those 15-year-old orders been followed, the bus involved in the gangrape could not have plied in any event.

So it is not that there has ever been a limitation of laws. The day our committee was formed, Delhi Police started to take steps, removed tinted glasses from buses and impounded such buses running in violation of permits. This bus was penalised many times, so why did they not act earlier? That could have saved the woman.

* In a first, you have proposed enactment of a bill of rights for woman. Why is this important for India?

Women occupying a few symbolic political positions in India do not reflect true empowerment of women in India. They are still being subjected to de facto inequality in every sphere of life.

A woman here seems to be risking her reputation and honour by reporting a sexual assault. I do not think that the rape victim suffers from a stigma...it is a stigma against society. We must snap the link between shame and honour, on the one hand, and the rape crime itself.
 

The Economic Times, 28 January, 2013, http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/women-unsafe-because-of-poor-governance-not-dearth-of-laws-justice-js-verma/articleshow/18215726.cms


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