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Interviews | Arvind Kejriwal, a member of the joint drafting committee for the Lokpal Bill, interviewed by Thufail PT

Arvind Kejriwal, a member of the joint drafting committee for the Lokpal Bill, interviewed by Thufail PT

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published Published on Jul 2, 2011   modified Modified on Jul 2, 2011

Arvind Kejriwal, a member of the joint drafting committee for the Lokpal Bill, is disappointed at the way the government has treated the suggestions made by the civil society for the new Lokpal Bill. In an interview with Thufail PT, he talks about the future of the campaign, the charges of the right-wing bias in the campaign and why it is okay to take funds from corporates for such campaigns. Edited excerpts:

The civil society members have submitted their draft of the Lokpal Bill to the government. But, the debate has not ended. Anna Hazare has said that he will start another hunger strike in August. On the other hand, Digvijaya Singh of the Congress has said that Hazare will be given the same treatment as Baba Ramdev was given. Are you prepared for this?

It is unfortunate that Digvijaya Singh has said this, because, we live in a democracy. Under Article 19 of the constitution, every citizen in this country has the right to protest peacefully. This is not right for a senior Congress leader like him to make such statements. If the government does that and if there is a police action against us, we are prepared for that.

The civil society members and the ministers in the joint Lokpal drafting committee have submitted two separate bills. This means that you still stand where you had begun. How do you evaluate the whole process of the drafting committee?

Yes, we stand where we began. That is right. In fact, we get a feeling that the joint drafting committee process was to some extent just a mere showpiece, because the government appears to have already made up its mind on many of the points. Many issues which have been included in the government’s draft were never discussed in the joint committee meetings. So, it appears that the government had already made up its mind on many of these issues. You are right that we stand where we had started on 16 April.

You want everyone to come under the purview of the Lokpal. But, who will the Lokpal be accountable to? That has been one criticism against your Lokpal?

The Lokpal will be accountable to the people of this country according to the draft submitted by us, and it will be accountable to the government according to the draft submitted by the government. According to the draft submitted by us, any citizen can make a complaint to the Supreme Court and have the Lokpal removed. But, according to the draft submitted by the government, only government can make an application to the Supreme Court to have the Lokpal removed.

Your campaign for an effective Lokpal was very peculiar, given the support and the media coverage it has drawn. Could you, please, tell us the special methods you adopted to reach out to people?

Before Anna’s fast on 5 April, there was not any media support. At that time, many things took place. We contacted people through both personal and impersonal means. We visited many places across the countries. We met people. We met other NGOs. We met other activists. We explained the Jan Lokpal Bill to them. Also, we used the internet, Facebook, SMS and other methods.

The new media and the internet had a great role to play in the success of this campaign. But, can it resonate in the rural India?

Yes. This is a misconception that this was only an urban movement. This is because the media reached only Jantar Mantar [in Delhi] or some places in urban India. Even in urban India, for instance at Jantar Mantar, there were a lot of people who came from slums. But, somehow the media concentrated only on pretty faces. But, there were also a lot of people from slums who no one talked to. I went to several villages around Varanasi, Lucknow and Sultanpur. I was pleasantly surprised that in every village when Anna sat on fast, people also sat on fast. This movement touched the chord with almost every citizen in this country.

There has been criticism that your campaign is allied with the RSS. Did you feel the need to make efforts to stay away from communal elements?

We would have felt the need if we were working with them. We are working neither with the RSS nor the BJP. Anna wrote a strong letter to Mrs Gandhi, saying that there was no evidence for it. It is very unfortunate that such senior people, responsible people [in the Congress] are making such false accusations. The country should be worried about it. How will the country be run if such senior people start making false accusations? Anna said, ‘Give me evidence. Show me how I am related to the RSS.’

One criticism against the campaign was that it only sought to punish the corrupt, not bothering to stop corruption or change the system which allows the corruption to flourish. How do you respond?

We started this movement only for the Jan Lokpal, and we have confined ourselves to that. We do not want to make it broad. We do not want to include so many issues in this movement. Annaji has already said that if we get the Jan Lokpal, in the next step we will also fight for electoral and judicial reforms. One by one we wish to take up these issues. If you take up all the reforms simultaneously, then nothing can be achieved. There are so many other groups which are doing wonderful jobs in other areas. We will join hands with them. All need to work together. It is not that only five or 10 of us need to take up all the issues. We have taken up the issue of the Lokpal Bill, and everyone has joined us. Others who have taken up others issues, we will join them.

The traditional elements of the civil society, including the National Advisory Council (NAC) team, has largely kept away from your campaign. What was the disconnecting factor?

I really do not know. You have to ask NAC members. Whenever they invite us, we go to all their meetings. We have also said that the process of drafting the Lokpal Bill should take place at both the places: the NAC as well as the joint drafting committee. Then it would have had the support of both the [Congress] party as well as the government. So, you have to ask them.

Throughout the campaign, you have kept the funding transparent. We can see that a large sum of the fund has come from the corporate world. Isn’t there a mismatch in this when you fight against corruption?

When you seek funds you can not go into the background of the donor. All that you can do is to ensure that no one influences your decisions. It is not about corporate or non-corporate funding. It is also possible that if an individual is giving money, then that individual has had a bad background. We cannot take a position that all corporates are bad and all individuals are good. Or, all business is bad and all non-business is bad. There is good corporate and bad corporate. There is good business and bad business. There is good individual and bad individual. When you receive funds, especially for such a large movement, then it is impossible for you to give a character certificate to all your donors. All that you can do is to take all the donations through cheques and put it on the website and make the whole process transparent. You should not take any donation in such a manner and of such amount that a person can influence the movement, which has not happened [in our case]. The kind of money that is coming in is so broad based and no one can influence our movement.

Political parties, including the BJP, have said that they would comment on the bill only when it comes to Parliament. How do you see their approach?

Firstly we appreciate that they are saying that they will make their views known only in Parliament. But, we, the people of this country, also want to know the views of all the political parties. We are quite anxious to know their views. Therefore, we urge them to also tell the people of this country what their views are. I am sure that in Parliament they will disclose their views. But, there is nothing to keep secret about it.

It is the first time in the history of India that the civil society was part of the drafting committee of a bill. Your critics say that the civil society is crossing its limits to play down the role of the elected members of Parliament?

No, that is wrong. I can give you the copies of the notifications earlier. Many bills have been drafted by the civil society. The government is projecting it like this. I was told by a minister that on 25 March there was another joint drafting committee formed by the government. So, there are so many joint drafting committees which have been formed earlier. This is the only committee which has been formed after an andolan. Otherwise, the government has been forming committees left, right and centre. There are so many laws which are straight away drafted by international agencies and given to the government and the government passes them. There is so much of backroom influence from international agencies, like the World Bank, on the government. If the people of this country want to draft a bill, then what is wrong in it?

So that is your answer to the criticism that the civil society is crossing its limits to play down the elected members of Parliament?

There the reaction would be a little different. Civil society is not crossing its borders. Democracy is by the people, of the people and for the people. The people are central. They elect representative and send them to Parliament. It is the duty of all the elected representatives to hear the voice of the people. The elected representatives are supposed to echo the voice of the people in Parliament. The voice of the people is definitely against corruption. [It is] a very strong voice. They want a very strong anti-corruption law. Firstly, what is civil society? Hundred and twenty crore people of this country are the civil society. The civil society also includes politicians. Politicians are not un-civil society. Everyone is civil society. I really do not understand the word ‘civil society’. All that I am trying to say is that parliamentarians have a duty to hear the voice of people. I am sure they will do that. They have already seen the kind of anger people have.
 
 

Tehelka, 27 June, 2011, http://www.tehelka.com/story_main50.asp?filename=Ws27062011Arvind.asp


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